GPA "Classic" alnico's to tame highs on Synergy horn

[Audiomind]

I moved this post from the "1803B plans available?" thread because it was so long and off topic but I think it deserves more talk on its own.

Anyone replying please don't take offense to my passionate late night rant below but tell me your thoughts on alnico versus ceramic and if you think they would tame the highs on the Synergy horn with those who might have experience using alnico on the Synergy/Unity horns.

By the way GPA is making almost all the Altec drivers in alnico again with the "Classic Series" and for what I think are very reasonable prices lets talk about those too versus other new drivers available today.

but for me the three way DSL Synergy horn is in a league of its own except for its too bright/sharp HF; so yes, I’ve auditioned most of the DSL products since I’m only ~45 min. away.
GM

Now the harshness on the HF of the Synergy touches on a much larger problem and really gets to me because I think I may know what some of the problem is.

I am going to high jack my own 1803 thread for a few paragraphs but I want
to get this off my chest

I would love to hear the Synergy with crossovers tuned up for a good new alnico GPA 802, I believe that is all they need (plus some tiny alnico mid drivers) they would be the cherry on the cake.

I hate to be a snob about this and this may sound really harsh to some but what I am about to say below really needs to be said more so the manufacturers get the message and some people get the hearing aid they need.

So now, the people that can't hear the difference an alnico magnet makes stop reading now, go to a doctor and let the doctor tell you how much of your hearing is gone. I am not joking, at least put on some high frequency test tones (found on web or test cd, tone generator ,etc.) through some head phones and see if you can't get over 12K.

If you can get out to 18K+ like me (not bragging just a fact) maybe there is something else I am not understanding but I still feel sorry for you because for as long as I have been in the hobby alnico has always sounded better, usually smoother and more detailed to me with great tone all at once. Alnico magnets are a thing of beauty in the sound world and for those that say they can't hear it does make me a little sad, I feel they are missing out.

For years I worked at a speaker reconer and constantly tested equivalent alnico/ceramic drivers with the same diaphragm, never once...ever did I choose a ceramic driver over an alnico version of anything, woofers included

So after testing and listening to over maybe $30,000 worth of compression drivers (no GOTO, ALE or super exotics just normal stuff) both new and old I can safely say I Hate (with a capital "H") nearly every last one of the pieces of crap that I have heard made today (a few exceptions should be the GPA alnico classic series alnico drivers (virtually same as old Altec production) and maybe one or two I don't love but don't hate either)....did you hear that people, I am saying virtually all compression drivers made today are lame big time, especially those extra harsh no low end neo magnet ones those tone deaf engineers try to pawn off on us spouting their rocket science credentials as proof the newer drivers are better.

Well my ears say no way, where the hell did the tone go? Forget all your silly etched detail give me back the real sound of something like a good alnico 802 with charged mags and fresh 10 watt aluminum diaphragms over anything I have yet heard in current production.

This even includes alnico TAD's and their fake sound. That also means plastic diaphragm garbage any other driver with plastic in or around the diaphragm driver (you need better horn, crossover and electronics to tame the harshness not any weird sounding plastic crap).

BMS is worst offender to me, some people seem to like the junk though, not exciting at all, even if you like the plastic diaphragm stuff, I warn everyone not to buy that pricey BMS coaxial, it sounds just plain wrong...I had such high hopes for it too.

Ok, I will calm down for a second and say I kind of like some of the progress that has been made making cheap drivers good with shorting rings, fancy diaphragm patterns, finite element analysis, etc., a Selenium D220ti for only $50 makes a great super tweeter on a short horn crossed above 5K!

D220ti doesn't really need eq from 5K up, yes it is virtually flat from 5K to 20K on almost any horn! it embarrassed some way more pricey drivers from around 3K-4K on up but this 1" driver does not solve the Synergy "edginess" problem in fact I would guess it would even sound a little more edgy than what ever Tom D. is using these days and D220ti has a sorry sounding tone below 4-5K.

But anyway the D220ti is a great bargain and it really is a good $50 driver if it is all you can afford but the GPA alnico Classic series 802 is only about $250 brand new, alnico magnets and everything!

A new GPA 802 will out class the D220ti by a large margin if it is exactly like or even similar to the original Altec 802 alnico (I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same and looks a little nicer too, as most readers here know the original Altec engineers are making it with original machines, etc, etc.)

Wow! I really apologize folks for my rant, hope I only pissed of corporate peddlers of substandard sound products please tell me to shut the hell up if you so desire.

[Old Guy]

Alnico responds to power differently. As does Neo. I prefer the 802 to the newer ceramic drivers, partially due to it's lower bandwidth.

If you get a chance, listen to Alnico TADs with the aluminum frams from Radian. Different and a bit more mellow.

For mid, I still like the big Alnico 288 G/H the best. I agree on the Selenium 220 with one caveat...not so good when driven to breakup. I hate titanium fram breakup artifacts. I did live sound, where drivers almost always hit breakup at some point.

The BMS 4540ND is their best one incher for Hi-Fi. Not sure which you listened to.

[fpitas]

I tried the D220Ti, since everyone said it was a giant beater. It sounded good for a $50 driver, but it put a faint "tinny" sound on music, which worked on rock but wasn't appropriate for other music. I'm guessing that's the sound of its titanium diaphragm.

A friend has BMS4550s on 511Bs. They sound really good to me.

I certainly won't tell you to shut up. Different people like different speakers, it's just a fact of life.

[Earl K]

I have Altec 288-8K's . They sound great . They ( IMHO ) are one of the real under-appreciated drivers in the HiFi world . They sport a ceramic magnet . Altec did a great job with the sound of this driver .

I do hear a difference between ceramic & alnico woofers ( thinking JBL here ). I prefer JBL's SFG version of the ceramic magnet . I feel ( it actually ) kicks ( or accelerates ) differently than the alnico equivalent ( as well as sounds cleaner ) .

Generally,

I put more weight ( when choosing a driver ) in the mechanical makeup of the diaphragm versus the magnet type ( for hifi usage ) / something like 80/20 .

I also give much more weight to network design than thinking about magnet considerations .

I consider capacitor choice ( for the HF leg of a crossover ) more important to spend my time on , than magnet type .

Also , amp types are a more important consideration than magnet type .

And so on .

( Obviously ) YMDV !

[Audiomind]

I have Altec 288-8K's . They sound great . They ( IMHO ) are one of the real under-appreciated drivers in the HiFi world . They sport a ceramic magnet . Altec did a great job with the sound of this driver .

I do hear a difference between ceramic & alnico woofers ( thinking JBL here ). I prefer JBL's SFG version of the ceramic magnet . I feel ( it actually ) kicks ( or accelerates ) differently than the alnico equivalent ( as well as sounds cleaner ) .

Generally,

I put more weight ( when choosing a driver ) in the mechanical makeup of the diaphragm versus the magnet type ( for hifi usage ) / something like 80/20 .

I also give much more weight to network design than thinking about magnet considerations .

I consider capacitor choice ( for the HF leg of a crossover ) more important to spend my time on , than magnet type .

Also , amp types are a more important consideration than magnet type .

And so on .

( Obviously ) YMDV !

If there is a place for ceramics I would say subwoofer land might not be a bad use and yes ceramics seem to have a tighter thump usually compared to its alnico equivalent . The higher you go with your woofer, I feel the more need you have for the alnico. Mids alnico for sure. Highs and extreme highs, I am again a little more open to non alnico here.

I do like alnico very much but I would like to say you are correct there are many much more important factors that the magnet type. Alnico is the icing on the cake.

The diaphragm and phase plug design are absolute huge factors and the alnico pales in comparison but when all is sorted out I want icing on my cake.

[Old Guy]

Audiomind, be aware I did live sound probably longer than you have been alive. You are expressing a lot of strong opinions others are not going to agree with. You need to back off and express it as opinion only.

You might want to research the forum a bit and find out more about your conversation partners.

[Old Guy]

Regarding ALL speaker choices...as I have said, it's a system composed of speakers and electronics. I suspect some speakers may sound better on some electronics.

Since none of us could possibly live long enough to try ALL possible combinations, best to talk about combinations you like rather than declaring one option to be the absolute.

[Audiomind]

I tried the D220Ti, since everyone said it was a giant beater. It sounded good for a $50 driver, but it put a faint "tinny" sound on music, which worked on rock but wasn't appropriate for other music. I'm guessing that's the sound of its titanium diaphragm.

Totally agree with you assessment of D220ti. I drilled about a 3/4" hole in a 1.5" superball and line the hole up so you could see down the throat to act as a diffuser near the edge of the mouth on a Pyle PH714 90x40 horn for my friend to stop the beaming.

The good part is it also seemed to take that metallic sound away at the same time it stopped the beaming. I think the extra edge in the sound was helpful to maybe "push" the sound through the extra diffusion created.

So there is hope for the D220ti to smooth out the sound with the right horn.


A friend has BMS4550s on 511Bs. They sound really good to me.

I certainly won't tell you to shut up. Different people like different speakers, it's just a fact of life.

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[Audiomind]

Alnico responds to power differently. As does Neo. I prefer the 802 to the newer ceramic drivers, partially due to it's lower bandwidth.

Yes exactly! thank you! and just because any certain magnet has an equal or greater gauss rating does not by any means bring in the fact that each of these magnets types are like springs with different compression rates. It is quite a complex reaction going on there

Not many talk about this phenomena and it need to be addressed.




If you get a chance, listen to Alnico TADs with the aluminum frams from Radian. Different and a bit more mellow.

Yes have had heard many Radian diaphragms, although I did complain about the plastic edge, sometimes they are the only choice available for a reasonable price (replacing TAD diaphragms) or driver that doesn't have any original phragms available plus and they do sound smooth, maybe too smooth and lacking a little tone and detail but nice and easy to live with. For instance the JBL uncoated titanium diaphragms are pretty harsh, the coated ones, not too bad, so yes I would take Radian in certain cases.

For mid, I still like the big Alnico 288 G/H the best. I agree on the Selenium 220 with one caveat...not so good when driven to breakup. I hate titanium fram breakup artifacts. I did live sound, where drivers almost always hit breakup at some point.

Just a pointer from myself and my other friends with years of experience in live sound. Forget using 1" drivers live under 5k unless you do quiet gigs or maybe have 48 db slopes to sneak down to 3k.

I put together a system for a buddy using D220 ti's on a 24db slope at 5k on up so they are basically almost a super tweeter. No harshness ever, just very detailed sound at extremely high volumes, amazing. Just because the factory says a driver can go down to a certain frequency does not mean you should do it.

You need to look at the distortion curve or just listen at the driver limits for a few seconds full rated bandwidth to hear why not.

This is the fatal flaw of the Econowave crossing at 1200hz with a D220ti. It works most of the time until a good peak comes along and sounds harsh.


The BMS 4540ND is their best one incher for Hi-Fi. Not sure which you listened to.

I was referring to the 4592ND, a shame it didn't work so well, I really wanted it to.

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